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CITIZENS ADVISORY 2013/03/14CITIZENS ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON ELECTIONS AND COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT MINUTES Thursday, March 14, 2013 6:30 p.m. Anaheim Central Library 500 West Broadway, Anaheim, CA 92805 COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: Anthony Armas Bill Dalati, Vice Chair Sandy Day Martin Lopez Gloria Ma'ae Keith Olesen Vivian Pham, Chair Vic Real John Woodhead, Ex Officio Member COMMITTEE MEMBERS ABSENT: Larry Larsen STAFF PRESENT: Greg Garcia, Deputy City Manager Robert Tyson, Deputy City Attorney Caroline Morey, Recording Secretary Spanish language translation services are available at the meeting upon request. L Call meeting to order. The meeting of the Citizens Advisory Committee on Elections and Community Involvement (CAC) was called to order at 6:34p.m.by Chair Pham. 2. Flag Salute 3. Approve CAC minutes of the February 21, 2013 meeting Action: Approve minutes. Commissioner Real had a question about Brian Chuchua on the February 28 minutes. Commissioner Diaz corrected him that the committee was approving February 21 minutes. Chair Pham requested a motion to approve the minutes for the February 21, 2013 CAC meeting minutes. Page 1 of 27 Commissioner Lopez motioned to approve. Vice Chair Dalati seconded. Ayes — 7 (Armas, Dalati, Day, Lopez, Ma'ae, Pham, Real) Noes — 0, Absent — 1 (Larsen) Abstention -1 (Olesen due to not being present) The motion passed. 4. Public Comments (Individual audience participation is limited to three (3) minutes per speaker) Action: Public comments on any agenda items or subject matter within the jurisdiction of the Citizens Advisory Committee. William Fitzgerald, spokesperson for Anaheim HOME: Homeowners Maintaining Our Environment. They are a grass roots organization of mostly senior Anaheim residents who have been active in promoting district elections for Anaheim over almost 20 years. They had about 900 members in the mid 1990s. Unfortunately, being an organization of seniors, they have had a high attrition rate in the last 15 years. He is here this evening to address the committee members concerning the opportunity to give a 15 minute detailed presentation to this committee hopefully to be scheduled in the next month or so. As the only active organization in Anaheim advocating district elections for almost 20 years, they have been waiting for months for the invitation from your committee to speak for about 15 minutes. After not receiving such an invitation, they are here tonight requesting that opportunity. In the last ten years, except in 2002 when they were tricked, one of our members representing our organization in the Anaheim City elections, especially when it would appear that the incumbent candidate to be running unopposed. The copy of the news article handed out to you, March 2, 2002 OC Register. It has a picture of 6 of our members, several of whom are now deceased. It also has a listing of the pros /cons of district elections by political science professors from UCI and CalState Fullerton. Also, in that newspaper photo is our present Anaheim HOME President, Steve White of White Realty. Steve is a long time Anaheim resident who grew up in Anaheim and graduated from Anaheim High School. He is a trustee of the North Orange County College District, Fullerton Community College. His parents were Anaheim pioneers. His father, Joe White, founder of White Realty, in the 1950's was a long time member of the Anaheim Utility Commission. His mother, Sally White, long time chairman of Relieve Anaheim. Steve would like to make some short comments followed by any questions you may have about district elections. Clara Turner, Policy Analyst with OCCORD, who has spoken to the committee before a couple weeks ago. This week she brought the committee a graph, since the topic of the meeting today is about the cost of administering electoral systems. She thought she would present a little research on a similar tangential topic, which is the cost of running for election in Anaheim. She said that a couple of public commentaries have spoken regarding cost issue. She thinks a few committee members might have brought it up also. The first page of the graph measures the amount of money spent on a campaign by a candidate. Here on the vertical axis, the X axis, it has the dollars spent which represents money raised by a candidate or their personal wealth. On the horizontal axis, the y axis, it shows how many votes they won. She thinks that while you can see that money alone is not the determining factor in the elections, if you have a certain amount of money to spend on the elections, you'll have a certain number of votes beyond people who aren't spending any money. The most important part is when you are considering how to improve electoral participation and involvement, you can see that there is a threshold, where if you can meet a certain amount of money, you become competitive. If you have a significant amount of money to spend on the election, you will have a certain number of votes ahead of those who don't have that money to spend. If you have a certain amount, while you might not win the election, you would certainly be among the top 3. If you don't meet that basic threshold of money, you're not even a player. It seems to hover Page 2 of 27 around $120,000 in 2006, $100,000 in 2008, $50,000 in 2010. If you don't meet that amount of money, you won't even be competitive. On the other side of the handout, she took into account the amount of money spent by Political Action Committees, PACs, that is money spent separately from what the candidate is spending, to influence and election either in support or opposition of a candidate. We can see two things from this graph, you can see the amount of money spent on the campaign jumps way up. You can see the amount of money needed to be a viable candidate. Instead of needing $50,000 in 2010, you now need $150,000. Instead of needing $100,000 in 2008, you now need $250,000. When you look at the total amount of spending including PAC's, it does separate the top 3 contenders. It's not like you're buying an election, just having a lot of money isn't going to guarantee you a seat, but you do have to have a certain amount of money to be considered a serious contender for this campaign. If you don't start out with enough fundraising ability or personal wealth, it looks like the PAC's aren't going to take an interest in you or help jump up to the spending level that you need to compete when you have independent expenditures and personal expenditures playing a role in your campaign. Finally, there have been a few people speak about capping campaign donations or the amount of money you can spend on a campaign might be a good thing for the city to consider, but the you would probably need to have a legal opinion on whether or not that is possible and how it would work, because as you all have heard in the last few years, there has been a Supreme Court interpretation of federal law that consider campaign donations to be an expression of free speech. Steve White said that he is here just to represent himself, not representing any organization. He is a 50+ year resident of Anaheim. For a long time, at least 25 years he has been an advocate for district elections. He came to the conclusion when he was more active in city affairs that the system itself, the election at large caused city government to be irresponsive to the citizens needs. He felt for a very long time that the only way to make any changes or make the government more accountable and responsive to citizens needs was election by districts, smaller areas. The election at large worked fine when the city was bordered by North, East, South and West Streets but now it's Western Avenue to Gypsum Canyon. There is a huge variety, a huge difference if we were to go to a district system. He believes candidates would actually be able to meet people, knock on doors, and be known. Also, the residents would know which particular councilman was responsible for their area. The minority representation is an added plus but he's talking about good governance, accountability of government. He supports districting and hopes the committee will consider the district concept. Duane Roberts, lives at 2276 Colchester Drive, 40 year resident of West Anaheim. The purpose of his speaking tonight is to support the idea of expanding the Anaheim City Council from it's current 5 members to 9 members. The current system is an antiquated relic of a bygone era when Anaheim was just a small community of German farm immigrants, not a thriving metropolis of more than 300,000 people of many different racial, ethnic, religious and socio- economic backgrounds. The reason why this institutional arrangement has continued into the 21 st century, a cultural lag, because a compact council size allows big business, wealthy individuals, and well - healed lobbyists to dominate municipal affairs. They are able to push through their agenda with little review and critical evaluation, and they are able to ignore neighborhood needs. An expanded council size either elected by district or by proportional representation would lead to the election of candidates that better reflect the race, ethnic, and socio- economic background of Anaheim. No longer would a handful of tiny millionaires and billionaires call all the shots at City Hall. Although not a panacea for all of Anaheim's problems, an expanded council size in combination with other reforms that he mentioned would lead to a body that better represents community interests, not special interests. Thank you for your time. Page 3 of 27 Eric Altman for OCCORD, Orange County Communities Organized for Responsible Development. Just a quick addendum to Clara Turner's presentation, two minutes ago for those who are in the audience, he thinks the committee members understand this good and well because they have been sitting through these conversations for quite a while. For the audience, the reason why campaign finance comes into play when you're talking about council districts is because it is a lot more expensive to run if you have to try and run citywide than if you have to run in just a district. Just a little more information for folks in the audience who may have come in late in the game. He wanted to share some documents presented to you in a folder since later on there is going to be a presentation about an update about the legislation under the California Voting Rights Act, OCCORD thought you might be interested in seeing some of the documents from the case. In the past the city staff's position has been that the lawsuit operates in a parallel universe, from this committee. So we thought you might want to know what is going on. The first document is the complaint that's been filed by three community leaders in Anaheim under the California Voting Rights Act in the first document. The next document is the city's answer to that complaint. The third document, is full of tabbed points on it. This is actually the city's legal filing in support of delaying the lawsuit so that this committee can do its work. He directed them to view the first tab on that document which just talked about this committee that they are using this committee's work as reason for the delay. The second tab in that document, is actually quite ironic, the second to last paragraph in the entire filing. It talks about how basically it's saying that the city wants to use this committee to force the plaintiffs in the lawsuit to bring forth their evidence that they have on racially polarized voting patterns, which is the same information that the city's staff has said that you guys can't request for yourselves, and you can't have. So, they are telling you that in this room, but in their court filing, they are saying the plaintiffs in this lawsuit should bring forth that information into this committee. So it's really quite an interesting contrast. The final document which is the plaintiff's response to the city's filing requesting time to delay this lawsuit while the committee does its work. It lays out the things that we've already documented well which this committee really has been a distraction from the issue of council districts even though, the committee would never have existed were it not for the issue of council districts being brought forward. So we thought the committee might want to review that information. These are lengthy documents, probably good bedtime reading but we thought you might want to have them and have access to them. Both sides were presented. Thank you very much for your time. Public comments closed at 6:50 p.m. 5. Review Ralph M. Brown Act Action: Presentation of the Brown Act Deputy City Manager Greg Garcia, introduced the concept of reviewing the Brown Act at this juncture due to the fact there were a couple new commissioners and it was a good time to reiterate this information so that the committee may be aware of important points on this relevant topic. Deputy City Attorney Robert Tyson reviewed a presentation providing an overview for the committee and the public on the Brown Act as it relates to public meetings and how they are conducted. He discussed possible options that the committee may wish to consider such as subcommittees and how the possible drafts of the final recommendations would be drawn and reviewed by the committee in order to reach a final stage of approval and presentation to the council. Page 4 of 27 The presentation is made available during the meeting and online at www.anaheim.net /CACelections Chair Pham asked a question about how the subcommittee work would be conducted. She asked whether you could discuss information with other committee members who are not on the subcommittee. Mr. Tyson recommended that in accordance with the Brown Act, a committee member should not discuss with other members of the committee who are not currently on that subcommittee, until such time that it comes before the entire committee. The purpose of the subcommittee, and any time an ad -hoc subcommittee is used with different agencies, is to bring a recommendation back to the council or the body as a whole. Mr. Garcia communicated that they would be bringing in a facilitator and he would assist in running the meetings and introduce protocol for the subcommittees. Vice Chair Dalati asked if it was possible to violate the Brown Act via email. Mr. Tyson said yes in the age of electronic communications, there are all sorts of possible quandaries being brought about. Members of the committee communicate amongst themselves, but you should exercise caution with email or Twitter, or Facebook amongst fellow committee members because any of these communications in series over a period of time ... they don't have to all be taking place at once, could link together a majority of members of the body "deliberating" over an issue that's before the committee. So, I would urge you to have your discussions amongst your committee members here at the public meetings. Be open, be frank, say what is on your mind. You're still in the information gathering phase, but you will shortly be in the phase where you all will need to be talking amongst yourselves to see what that final report looks like. It will be important to have those discussions here engaged with the public and engaged amongst yourselves. Chair Pham thanked Mr. Tyson. 6. Receive and File Community Outreach Efforts Action: Receive and file community outreach report, upon presentation of outreach efforts. Deputy City Manager Greg Garcia introduced Ed Velasquez, outreach coordinator, who provided an overview of the city's outreach efforts highlight on the flyer provided. Ed Velasquez spoke regarding the outreach update. He said the outreach continues in utility bills, meeting notices/ schedules that are posted at City Hall, public libraries. Facebook notices on City of Anaheim page. Those go out Monday or Tuesday before the meeting. The email press release goes out a few days before the meeting. Email goes out to all those who signed up on the website. I've been ask to mention again all those who sign in at the meeting will receive email updates on the sign in sheet at the back of the room. Those names on the sign in sheet will be added to the email list to receive information about the upcoming meetings. His focus has been talking to community groups. If there are any groups you recommend reaching out to in the next two months, please let him know. He can attend their meeting, pass out flyers and make a brief announcement. Page 5 of 27 Outreach information made available during the meeting and online at www.anaheim.net /CACelections Commissioner Lopez asked how many emails were registered. Mr. Garcia said that they do not have that number available tonight but they do have a community list of people who have submitted their emails to the City Information Office who receive press releases about these meetings. That list is in the thousands. Commissioner Lopez said that is good to hear. He said that he had a question regarding the Anaheim Public Utility bill where there was an insert. He said it was really tiny, really small. Most people are going to be looking at what the amount of their bill is that they need to pay, rather than the announcement. He feels like it may be getting lost in that bill. Is there any chance that they could do a larger flyer exclusively inviting the community members to the meeting. Mr. Garcia said that was good feedback and they would look at that to see if they could add an additional attachment of make it more visible. They will come back to that and see what they can do. Commissioner Real said not to be argumentative but he saw the Anaheim Magazine as of February 13 and it was there. He did not see it on the utility bill at his house a couple of weeks ago. He saw a big blooper that they announced in the newspaper yesterday where they announced that the meeting was last night March 13 instead of today, March 14. Mr. Real said he wasn't sure if you had any control over that. Some of the things are not happening the way that you present them here. Mr. Velasquez said that he believed the media advisory that he saw had the correct information, so it might have been a mistake on the newspaper's end or on the reporter's end. Mr. Garcia said they were contacted by the Orange County Register and they admitted they made a mistake and followed up with a retraction. Also, when we got word that there was a mistake, we put some flyers at the doors of this building so that if anyone came last night by mistake they would know the meeting was tonight, March 14. Commissioner Olesen agreed with Mr. Lopez by saying that if you are going to use the utility bills, it needs to be a separate insert or page. He has lived here almost 30 years and he thinks he's fairly informed, however, he's never read an insert in his utility bill. If it was separate that would be better. He also asked what the E- subscribers 10,000+ referred to. Mr. Garcia said that is the community email list that I was referring to. Commissioner Olesen said so it's over 10,000. Mr. Garcia said yes, you are correct. Commissioner Olesen said it's considerably larger than what you made it sounds like. Vice Chair Dalati said in addition to what Mr. Lopez said, everyone who is registering online to pay their bills, which seems to be the majority of people now in Anaheim these days. He said he thinks it's an Page 6 of 27 opportunity to use their email to communicate with them. That is also a cheap way to communicate with the residents of Anaheim. Is that a possibility also? Mr. Garcia said they can ask that question of their utility department if they can use those emails to send that information without their permission. There may be some privacy issues. People who sign up to pay their bill online may have to give us permission to use their email address. He said we have to be careful to not get in the business of spamming our residents and then they never want to provide their email address for any other avenues again. Mr. Garcia said he will ask the question as to what opportunities there are. Mr. Velasquez also mentioned that upon the suggestion of Committee Member Olesen last time, we did add a column to the sign in sheet to request people let us know how they heard about the meeting so that can be helpful in terms of finding out which outreach methods are more effective than others. Chair Pham requested a motion to receive and file the report on outreach efforts. This was done out of order at 8:41 p.m. as it was unintentionally skipped. Commissioner Armas motioned to receive and file. Commissioner Lopez seconded. Ayes — 8 ( Armas, Dalati, Day, Lopez, Ma'ae, Olesen, Pham, Real) Noes — 0 , Absent — 1 (Larsen) The motion passed. 7. Overview and presentation of Election Administration Costs and overview of the City Council size Action: Presentation by Sarah Hill, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Political Science, California State University Fullerton. Chair Pham asked Mr. Garcia to provide the introduction. Speaker Summary: Dr. Hill provided information about the possible costs in changing the election system. In summary, she said that a change to the electoral system does not necessarily change election costs, unless a primary runoff is added which can increase the election cost by more than double. She provided several possible electoral scenarios and outlined pro /cons from each of the systems. Increasing the number of council members will not change the election costs. However it will mean additional operational costs for the city. She also addresses the different type of mayors and the means by which the mayor may be selected through appointment or direct vote including pros /cons of each method. She discussed council magnitude and size and provided a comparative summary of California cities. She summarized the commonalities of large cities and their electoral tendencies. Question and Answer period for Dr. Hill. Page 7 of 27 Vice Chair Dalati mentioned that she has cost $146,000- $186,000 and specific numbers in her presentation, is this particular study for Anaheim? Dr. Hill said, yes, that would be for Anaheim. Commissioner Real asked a question about cost information and he asked about measures. Dr. Hill said it would be for mayor and city council. She stated that if you added measures, such as a charter change, about $8500 total per measure. That is actually very inexpensive when you divide it out on a per voter basis. There is a slight increase when you add measures, but not much. Commissioner Real said so that the limits are for mayor and council. Dr. Hill said yes mayor and the whole city council that is on the ballot at that time. Vice Chair Dalati said potential to limit geographic fights over resources. He said he has asked that question of city staff and they have answered by saying the resources will be equally divided by they city so what is the fight for? Dr. Hill said what can happen and it might depend upon the city policy. She is not as aware of Anaheim's city policy, so she is speaking very broadly in terms of what they know about cities that go to districts. This might not even be a possibility in Anaheim. For example, say you had a city with districts and the city decided they wanted to build a new park, some district would be getting the resources of a park, and the council members might fight over whose district gets the park. If Anaheim had a policy where resources are divided evenly, you might be able to avoid that problem. Commissioner Olesen said he had a couple of comments and with as interesting as he finds the prices to be, he doesn't think it should be a major deciding factor in terms of how we elect representatives efficiently. This isn't an area where you shop for a bargain. The costs he believes are relatively insignificant between the different systems. He doesn't think should be a major concern for consideration in the first place. That being said, he is interested in this list of cities that the professor provided.. Dr. Hill said when she saw that list she agreed, yes, that it is fascinating. Commissioner Olesen asked however many cities are listed here, he is trying to understand how these cities were chosen because they all seem to be within Orange County except three. Dr. Hill said the staff provided that list to us which I was very grateful for. She is not sure how they selected those cities but she believes that they were looking to comparable cities, with a similar size, and demographic to Anaheim. Mr. Garcia said they wanted to go local but when it came to expanding to larger cities, the selected those that were closest in size to Anaheim. They didn't select L.A. or San Francisco or San Jose or some of those larger ones. Commissioner Olesen said that is exactly why I asked. Just to question something that you had mentioned on this list, you said that the larger cities seem to be more district oriented, but the Page 8 of 27 information here would not agree. If you take the top two they are, if you take the top four it's 50150. If you take the next two it's 50/50. Chair Pham said I'm pretty sure Santa Ana has wards which are like districts. Dr. Hill said they are nominated by ward but elected at large. Commissioner Olesen so they do have an at -large election. Dr. Hill said yes it is at- large. She also said that is another option to be nominated by district or ward and elected at large so that you are ensuring there are candidates representative of the entire city by the time that you go to the general election. She has a list that included cities in other states and if you include population and sort those by size, you do see that large cities do tend to be districts. There aren't quite enough data points on here the same size as Anaheim; they get a lot smaller very quickly. If you look at similar cities in other states you do see that pattern pretty clearly. Commissioner Olesen said that he can only go off of what has been provided to him in his handout. Chair Pham said there was another page in the handout that has the whole list of cities within your handouts. There is a one page that has the complete list. Commissioner Day asked if Dr. Hill had ever tracked a city in her studies that one time was at large and moved to districts, and tracked its progress over time. Dr. Hill replied that she had not done that and that in reading the literature on this she has seen certain cities switches, and you see an increase in diversity when they switched. That is what is commonly seen in the literature. There may be a case study that tracked this over a period of time. I would be very curious to see this as well. Commissioner Day said one of the items that Dr. Hill mentioned in the documents provided was with respect to at -large elections regarding the pros and cons and the potential suppression of minority interests. Ms. Day said that to me, something that would be interesting to see is an at -large to district situation, if you actually witness an increase in voter participation. Dr. Hill said that is a really good question. She did not have an answer but said that this is a big question in political science and it has been studied in the literature. We do know that it tends to increase the diversity of the city council. In terms of turnout, that is an excellent question and Dr. Hill said she does not have an answer. Chair Pham said she also had an answer for Commissioner Day. She requested from staff that Dr. Terry Christensen from San Diego State University present because was a key person in the City of San Jose at the time when they went from at -large to districting in the 1970's, so he actually has a book on that. Is that correct staff? Mr. Garcia said yes he does. Chair Pham said they requested to have him present but he was unavailable for a few months. Page 9 of 27 Commissioner Day said she did recall seeing the memo. Chair Pham said that the city staff provided demographics on the city size and geography. Commissioner Day said thank you and asked one last question of Dr. Hill. What if and have you seen this in particular studies, what if in a particular district nobody decides to run, or maybe you only get one person? In other words, my concern might be if no one runs or if someone who isn't well qualified runs, I'm trying to choose my words carefully, the quality of the council might be lessened. If the only person that runs knows they are going to win, how does that affect the council. It's an important position so that would worry me. Dr. Hill said that the only place she can think of that has an issue like that might be St. Louis. They are rather infamous. They have a huge city councils of somewhere like 30 members, maybe 28. That's far, far, far too many. That happens there because you have diluted it so much. It is a problem. I don't see that happening if you have 7 or 9. It's when you've diluted it to 30 that it is a problem. It is definitely a problem for them. Anaheim is a large city and I don't see that being a problem if there were for example 7 or 9. There are a lot of folks who are interested in city governance and they would like to participate. That's a good question. Commissioner Day said that in talking about districts there was a couple weeks ago something came up in Los Angeles they were saying that a complaint had been filed because of how the districts had been drawn that they were alienating Asian Americans. She thought that was fascinating and something as well to study, too. It's almost like a can of worms, because once you decided to go this route, you have to be careful to do it correctly or it could be a series of continuous lawsuits. Commissioner Day said she just wondered about it and was asking for Dr. Hill's response. Dr. Hill said that yes, drawing districts is a very, very tricky process, potentially. You could get experts to speak on that. There are ways to be thoughtful and intentional and be sure that the lines are drawn well. It's important that your plan is thoughtful and intentional. California, as a state, dealt with this when they drew the lines after the 2010 Census. There was a citizen's commission that had that joy. They could tell you stories. It was very hard. Most people think that the job they did was a very good one. They can take the public feedback into account and draw lines that make sense for the community. Vice Chair Dalati would it be fair to say that your summary is a reflection of your opinion, like if you said that changing the electoral system does not cost any money, go ahead and change it? It's not going to cost you anything. I met some council member from the city of Compton where they went though the same thing that we did, she was totally against districting, but it turned out to be a positive thing. What is your feeling on that? Dr. Hill responded, as a political scientist, she thinks that she has to say that there is not one right answer. Any system can be good or bad in a different context and even within the same city. It used to be that historically cities were districts and that was such a problem that everyone went to at large. Now everyone, a lot of cities are going back to districts. Times do change. A system that is right for a particular city can change as the times change. We have seen these trends happen over a period of a hundred or two hundred years. The cost, is actually simply the information on the cost. We called up and said how much would this cost, so that is just straightforward information for you to have. She Page 10 of 27 thinks it's a very difficult question and there are real concerns that need to be taken into account from both sides. They need to be listened to. Commissioner Ma'ae in your experience, has Santa Ana's system been effective? Has it reduced the amount of money for an individual district versus spending of funds for the city as a whole? Has it been effective? Dr. Hill said that she has not studied Santa Ana. She thinks that is a really good question because they are right next door. She thinks since the change is fairly recent switching from at -large to wards, so she's not sure exactly how that has worked out. She thinks it is a good question to ask to learn from each other. Commissioner Real thanked Dr. Hill for the presentation. On the page for the mayors role in cities, Mr. Real said he can't agree with you on the weak and strong numbers. The city mayor and council that's small tend to be a very strong person. He does delegate to his other council members. But in the final vote he is just another vote on the council, agreed? Dr. Hill said that this is terminology from the political science literature and the way we use these terms is a "weak" mayor is defined simply by the powers that the mayor is explicitly given versus a "strong" mayor. So, it's looking at what does the city charter say, if the mayor has more or less power, they fall either into the weak or the strong category. It's classifying the charter, not what the mayor actually does or their personality. It's a political science terminology to determine how we classify how cities have set up their structures. Commissioner Real said the second part of his question, say the strong mayor like in Los Angeles, but he doesn't believe that he is actually very strong, maybe as an individual, himself. He finds that the race that they just had last week, he read that there was an abysmal turnout. Only two elected officials will make it to the primary. Is it possible that could happen here if we were in district mode? The turnout? The problem for L.A. is that they hold their election not consolidated with the primary or the general. It was abysmal, something like 16% which is horrific. They are looking into changing it. In her opinion if you want to increase turnout, it should coincide. If you want good turnout, you make sure that it is at the same time as the general which is what Anaheim already does. Your turnout numbers are actually very good. Local government unfortunately has very low turnout in general. The main thing to do is to keep the election at the same time as the general election so that it's consolidated. The drop off happens when you have it at an off time. Commissioner Real on this chart, you have three cities that have seven council size, you discount Santa Ana. The other two cities Huntington Beach and Newport Beach: what would you say is their success story? Dr. Hill said she doesn't know. She thinks that is a really good question to ask. Commissioner Real asked about charter versus general law. The charter dictates what the mayor can do. What does the general law do in that respect? Dr. Hill said that under general law there are still rules and guidelines for what the mayor can do. Under both systems, there are procedures and policies about what the mayor can and can't do. Charter Page 11 of 27 simply gives the city more freedom to decide for themselves what types of powers they would like to give to the mayor. Both systems outline what the mayor is and is not able to do in his job. The charter just gives you more flexibility in what you would like to give to the mayor. Commissioner Armas, Dr. Hill touched on something interesting, when you said that districting used to be the norm, then they got away from districting because of the corruption. Dr. Hill said yes. Commissioner Armas continued so we got away from districts and went to at- large. Now we're going back to a district that has the same corruption problems, unless we address those corruption problems. It wouldn't be a district vote, it would be that they would have to have rules to go along with that district. They have problems in L.A. with a guy who doesn't even live in the district. We've had problems in Anaheim where council people we basically running for another office, are they going to move to another district, so that they can get that vote, and they were still serving on the council, which tells me they were ready to jump ship on us for another elected office. So, how do you, I don't think districting would be a cut and dry, move to districting and expect it to solve all our problems. I actually think it's going to create a lot more problems, unless we address them up front. Dr. Hill said right. There are a few points. One is the nature of politics is such that you can't guarantee that someone will be here for their full term or isn't going to be there looking for the next office. That's politics, right. Very often a council member, whether at -large or district, is often looking on to what the next job might be. So she doesn't see that as much as an at -large vs. district issue. It's more of a politics issue. Such is life. The reason why districts were, back in the day, a problem and there was corruption, had a lot more to do with party politics. The parties were a lot more corrupt and you had a lot of shenanigans going on with party politics. Parties have been eliminated at the local level in California and that would hopefully avoid a lot of the problems. There are much better rules and regulations as to what is allowable, what politicians are allowed to do or not to do. Much more regulated and parties are really not present in the same way that they once were. They are not present at the local level and that avoids some of the problems historically. They've been taken care of in other ways. Now, are there still concerns about districts being interested in a local issue and not the city as a whole? Yes, that's a concern. A lot of the other things have been dealt with in other ways. Commissioner Armas said so you're saying the parties influenced the corruption. Dr. Hill said they were the corruption. Commissioner Armas said yes, I understand but I don't think the problem is going away. Now we have special interest groups that are just as powerful as the parties but they masquerade themselves better. So, I don't think it's going away, it's just better disguised. Dr. Hill said yes, it's not nearly as strong as it used to be. The parties were just amazingly corrupt machines. It's not as bad as it used to be. Yes, there are special interests. Again, she thinks that's a political issue not an at -large versus districts issue. That's the nature of politics that you get these special interests trying to maneuver politics even at this local level; it's the nature of the beast. Page 12 of 27 Commissioner Armas said, again, that would be my point, are we creating more problems? How do we address those up front instead of running into them as the process goes and then we alienate more people. It's got to be thought out pretty well. We need to know the corruption problems before we can address them. Dr. Hill said you may have a hard time predicting exactly what may pop up ahead of you. She doesn't know if you'll have different interests. You will get different types of interest when you have at -large versus districts, but they are always there maneuvering and trying to manipulate the system. They work a little differently but they will always be there. With districts there are concerns to keep in mind, one way, perhaps, to think about it, is a hybrid system which might balance some of that. An at -large mayor tries to keep the interest of the whole city in mind which could balance some of that. Those are some things to think about in providing some leverage for what the concerns might be. Vice Chair Dalati had a two part question for the city staff and then for Dr. Hill. For city staff, do we have a policy in the city on how to divide city resources, and if we don't, Dr. Hill, do you think we should study this at this time? Deputy City Manager Greg Garcia responded that the city does not have an official policy on how to divide up funding throughout the city. We have a budget process every single year in which the council receives a report from the city manager. At that time, the council makes a decision on voting for a budget that serves the priorities of the city. Vice Chair Dalati asked so the City Council divides that when they do into their meetings? Mr. Garcia said when the budget is brought forward to the council; they direct city staff to make any changes as appropriate based upon the many priorities that they bring forward. Is there a policy where funds are divided equally among certain parts of the city? No, that is not the case. Dr. Hill doesn't have a definitive answer. It is up to you if that is a question you would like to ask or see what other cities would like to do. That's how we tend to learn as political scientists, what are people doing and what is out there in order to figure out how others have resolved some of these problems. Vice Chair Dalati said that there is already an issue where some people feel that the city spends more on the hills than the downtown areas, or west Anaheim or central Anaheim. That is an issue. Do you think we should make a policy? Dr. Hill said her inclination is to say no because policies like that lock you in and have unintended consequences that can haunt you for years and may create all sorts of problems that you never even thought about. There may be a very valid reason to allocate more resources to one part of the city for whatever reason the council decides together. Strict rules like that could lead to unintended consequences down the road that may create problems for the city. Commissioner Lopez wanted to follow up on Commissioner Dalati's comment and I think that studies have already shown that the distribution of our resources are already taking place and we can see that with the current system. With all due respect to Commissioner Armas, he disagreed with Commissioner Armas comment about corruption being more imminent when we go to district elections. All we have to do is examine these actual numbers from OCCORD's handout that special Page 13 of 27 interest is already playing a big role even with the current system. He wonders who is donating $300,000 in contributions. He wonders if this is coming from big developers who are getting $150 million in subsidies. It's that kind of a question. It is interesting to, see that during your great presentation that there is not going to be any additional cost if we go to district elections. He is just wondering what is the cost of all those communities feeling not represented already. Dr. Hill said there is a very symbolic cost and it leads to the questioning of the legitimacy of city government. In general in political science, they tend to think, the special interests are always there working regardless of what the political system is that is working. It's simply the way politics works these days. Commissioner Real, Dr. Hill, on the multiple district single member, you have the pros and cons, he said on the pros he thinks something is missing relating to Anaheim. We have neighborhood watches that become political, to the extent that in West Anaheim, we have a West Anaheim Neighborhood developing council with a very strong voice at city council meetings. Likewise, we know for a fact if the city were to be divided to districts, and he said that he's been here since 1955, he understands that Anaheim Hills would like to succeed from the city. If there is a move to districting what is the cutting up of the pie going to do to Anaheim? Dr. Hill said that is a very good question. She thinks that her question is what is the future of Anaheim if you keep going the way you are? Districts would allow everyone to have a voice and feel included in the process, perhaps. Perhaps. Whereas under the current system, she thinks a large part of the community does not feel like it is a cohesive unit. She thinks that is a consideration to make. What happens to Anaheim Hills down the road is anyone's guess. She doesn't think that is so much a districting vs. at -large issue. That is more an issue of what Anaheim Hills decides to do for Anaheim Hills. Commissioner Real said that has been different from the argument you just now stated. The major issue is that the council favors the Downtown Disney business district and that they ignore the rest of the city. Dr. Hill said so, as it is, under the current system, a large part of the population feels like they are not included. So you're saying how could we potentially find a way where everyone feels more included. She thinks that potentially adds cohesion if they have a voice and feel like they are a part of the process instead of some folks feeling entirely left out. When you are able to show up at the table and have a voice, you want to participate because it matters. So, she thinks that is something to consider. Commissioner Armas said to your point, he has known people in Anaheim Hills who didn't think they lived in Anaheim. He said that he had to remind them to loop at the police car insignia. They literally did not believe they lived in Anaheim. There is a problem in Anaheim with my curb is crushed, and people say well I bet that doesn't happen in Anaheim Hills. What they fail to realize is that Anaheim Hills is fairly new. We have an older Anaheim, a middle Anaheim and a newer Anaheim, which is the hills. Everyone is getting into this idea of districts and we're already fighting and we don't even have districts yet. It's such a neat city because we do have an older district, a newer district, an entertainment district, districts that have very few residents such as the entertainment district. It's going to be really hard to put all the residents together and he thinks that's what this committee is trying to do figuring out how to remove the barriers regardless of where you Page 14 of 27 live. It is one city and it is all our money and should be divided equally. Again, there is a budget that is made every year, residents can petition for that money. There is a need to make them aware. There is a need to get things fixed and unfortunately there might not be the money available. Dr. Hill said and certainly in this economy there might not be the money. Commissioner Armas said but they do deserve an answer Dr. Hill agreed and said the larger question is does everyone deserve to be a part of the process. Many people are going to disagree with the final budget the council decides on no matter what you do What adds legitimacy to what you do is that everyone had the chance to be involved with reaching the final budget. Certainly someone will be unhappy with the outcome; that's politics in reality, People buy into it if they are at least able to be involved in the process. Commissioner Armas said in the last election there was a pretty big gap between the 2 front runners and the rest. If there were two more seats, he thinks that would have been a huge difference in the election. Dr. Hill said keep in mind with more seats you will get more candidates but it does open it up to more people being able to participate in the process. It could balance things out. Commissioner Armas said one last point; some of these seats were won with 21% of the vote. He is having trouble understanding even if we weren't districting, why you couldn't canvas 20% of the city. Is doesn't seem like it would be that hard to focus on 21% of the city. It wouldn't be that hard so I'm having a hard time understanding why they didn't put their efforts that way. If there had been two more seats, it wouldn't have taken many votes to get them. While we're talking cost and all these other issues but I think it could be eliminated by that. Maybe they weren't campaigning correctly. If the residents knew how little it took to get someone in office... Dr. Hill said that they could push over that threshold? Commissioner Armas said it's just a thought. Dr. Hill said she is going to say something that may be controversial, if you look at the list of the last election for city council and look at who won and then you draw the line to see who was the rest of the field, there were several Latino candidates who were really close to getting there. She thinks that the Latino community may be having difficulty coordinating on a candidate and they may be spreading their vote over too many candidates. If there was one Latino candidate on the ballot, that's who they might vote for and it would push it over. If there's an election where it's potentially spread over several then the vote is more diluted. Districts would, perhaps, help coordinate and, perhaps, allow them to push that candidate over the threshold. She thinks that might be what's going on looking over the list. As she said that is certainly up for debate. Commissioner Armas said so then we get into a city known as just a surname? Dr. Hill said there is a whole other issue there. Commissioner Armas said so then we offend Caucasians? Page 15 of 27 He said so it's a no -win. Dr. Hill said it goes back to the question does everyone legitimately have a chance to be a part of the process no matter your race or ethnicity, no matter who the majority /minority group is. What enables everybody to have a seat at the table is the question? Commissioner Armas said fair enough. Commissioner Dalati it's a known fact that a lot of politicians live in the Hills. They know how to campaign for city resources, they know how to campaign for city council, they know how to campaign the staff also. How do you protect the rest of the city as far as the resources are concerned. Many of the people who live in downtown Anaheim, they don't know how to ask if their street is bad. How do we protect them? Dr. Hill said how do you protect them? She asked that he rephrase. Vice Chair Dalalti asked how do we protect other area residents since you said it would be bad to create a policy but how can we be sure they are fairly treat too? Dr. Hill said she would hope that West Anaheim because it's older might need more of the money for maintenance. Generally, the older areas have greater need. She wasn't thinking Anaheim Hills would get the money, she thought it would go to the older areas with greater need. It would be unequal just based on maintenance. In the outreach you are doing, you let people know, if you have a problem, this is who you call. You would have a council member in West Anaheim and you would call that person or their office and they would help you. Hopefully there would also be outreach involved. Commissioner Day said that City Clerk, Linda Andal, provided us with some statistics today and I'm not sure if you have a copy of this document from the Office of the City Clerk dates March 14. The committee had requested this. Let's look at the 2012 numbers. What Linda did was show the 4 quadrants: west, central, south and east. You will see they had 4 regarding registration, the actual turnout, to the right of that you will see the population. What she did was she divided up. She figured out for us among the population who is actually able to vote due to citizenship, so all she could do is go by age. We know that number may not be accurate but for argument's sake, this was the best that she could provide given the circumstances. Something we seems to see over and over, something that Ms. Day said she is very passionate about is voter participation and encouraging more of our citizenry to want to participate in the process. So, when we see things like the population of central Anaheim, which is our most heavily populated Latino part of our city with 104,000 plus but only a turnout of 27,000. That is a major factor that needs to be considered, when residents are feeling they are not being represented but in reality there is a lack of participation. It's a major part of the truth with respect to the outcome. When you look at an area like east Anaheim, where estimated population is about 70,000 and you have a turnout of 30,000, that region is showing up to vote. Ms. Day is a resident of Anaheim Hills and she always calls it Anaheim. She would also caution people to make assumptions about that area. There are wonderful good people there who love the city of Anaheim. She thinks that there is something to be said for the results in that voting is the first step in being represented. Ms. Day wonders how that plays out if they are not showing up to the polls. Dr.Hill said she would need to look at it further, but that this is actually good voter turnout. She said the United States as a whole has rather abysmal voter turnout. She does see differences based on what Ms. Day shared and that may be concerning. For people to be involved adds to the legitimacy of the Page 16 of 27 process. She always says voting is a two step process. She said that you must first registers. In the south where there is 33% eligible population, that could be because of some other issues there. Working on voter registration is the first step and then the next step is turnout. There are groups in Anaheim that are working really hard at improving turnout. What will going to districts do, knowing that this person cares about the city, districts could be a pretty good motivator to a lot of people. What can happen if for a long time, people feel like council is run by folks from the other part of town, they tend to get discouraged and they are less likely to participate? If someone feels like he /she able to elect someone from your neighborhood that will represent that person's interests that might add buy -in and motivation to the process and encouraging voters. There are some people who still won't vote. Commissioner Armas, if there was a district it would be population driven. Dr. Hill said yes the districts would need to be equal in population based on census data. They would need to be re -drawn every ten years after census data. Commissioner Armas said so there could be controversy in how the possible districts are drawn? Dr. Hill shook her head yes and said that drawing districts can be very difficult. Commissioner Armas said he pulled up New York where they have about 140,000 people in their districts. If we went off their model, we would have fewer council people in Anaheim. Dr. Hill said that is right. Those would be very big districts for Anaheim. She could potentially see Anaheim with 4 -6 districts to provide better access to their council people. Commissioner Armas said if everyone thought like you we wouldn't have any problem. Dr. Hill affirmed the idea that there are many possibilities. Commissioner Armas are going to say we're over - represented, there's too many, your district is better than our district, you're cherry- picking, and you have more Hispanics. He sees another argument there. Dr. Hill said as political scientist they hope to come up with the ideal plan but there is no ideal plan and you can't make everyone happy. Given the situation, you consider what will be most likely to help. Commissioner Armas, said forget about city size and tell me how many people you would recommend would be able to help represent the city fairly if there were districts. Dr. Hill considered many options. There are various council to resident ratio. She doesn't have an answer. She said having smaller districts means that council may be more fragmented � where you get to the St. Louis example of having 30 districts which is completely dysfunctional. There's not one answer. She recommends keeping it big enough yet so it's.accessible by the people. Page 17 of 27 Commissioner Armas said if you take LA County for example, they have a lot of experts, yet are one of the most mismanage and don't know where there money goes. So, he is having a hard time determining the right answer. Dr. Hill said LA County is run by the board of supervisors made up of 5 people. She said there are pros and cons in any system but the committee should consider what cons are you willing to live with and why. Also considering what add to the legitimacy of city government and represents them while keeping their interests in mind. The people need to feel like they are a part of the process and their voice is heard. Obviously, someone may not be happy but you work toward the overall concerns of the city. Commissioner Day said that some areas have more concentrated population and some areas in the east are very sparsely populated, so that the person in the east may have a very large piece of property they are watching over and someone in central may have a very small area they are watching over, Government's job is to make sure everyone is fairly considered. One council person's job may be much more difficult and so how does that play out? How do you fairly draw districts being mindful of that? Dr. Hill said that is a reality of how we draw districts in the United States. She said that she is originally from Texas and when you draw Congressional districts, you get very small districts in the east and the Houston area where she is from and out in the west there is a large chunk of land that someone gets to serve. That's what happens because they are equal in population not land size so they all have different needs. That might be why you would not want to guarantee equal resources because there will be different needs of each district. A more densely populated older area may need more maintenance than a larger less populated. This is common in the American system of districts. Commissioner Armas said we have a huge entertainment district, yet few people live there. Many of those businesses live outside the city or in other districts yet those businesses and entertainment areas bring in a tremendous amount of money for the city as a whole. How do we ensure they are fairly represented yet their population isn't there? How do you deal with that? Dr. Hill said that is a really good question because it's critical to the economy of Anaheim. That's where you might want to think about the at large representation. Because the mayor is concerned about the economy of the entire city, he would be paying attention to the interests of the entertainment industry areas in order to benefit the entire city. If you had hybrid system, you might have other at large seats so that you can give some concern to those areas. That is one approach. The resort area would result in someone's geographic district. The council person for that district would be a voice for them so they would be represented. That is a very important concern to think about. Commissioner Armas said it is a huge concern in our city. Dr. Hill said it is critical for Anaheim. Commissioner Armas said and we are expanding the entertainment district. He doesn't know if residents are aware of how much they impact the city by the stadium, the pond, the resort, and all the venues that are here. A lot of jobs were created as a result of those areas and businesses. It is a sensitive area. There are people who would rather see the hotels built in Garden Grove and they would block the city from more entertainment. There is a fight there, potentially a huge fight there. Page 18 of 27 Again, those special interests. Garden Grove would love to see Anaheim extend Harbor Boulevard instead of the area growing to the north. The representation of those areas is vital. It is possible we could lose them. Dr. Hill agreed it is something to consider. She said it is important to think about whatever system you recommend; where they would be represented in that system either by the member who represents that district or if you have an at -large mayor or at -large council members would also be a voice for that. Commissioner Real asked if there might be audience questions. Chair Pham wished to open it up. Duane Roberts had three questions. 1. Have you done any research on cities here in the United States that use systems of voting other than winner take all such as cumulative voting and proportional representation. 2. In past Anaheim Council elections, the top two vote getters in 2010 and 2012 earned less than 20% of the vote each, as a political scientist, I'm going to ask a controversial question now. There's not any particular reason I'm picking these city council candidates, this could be applied to almost any city council election, not only in Anaheim, but elsewhere. As a political scientist, would you agree with me that council members elected with such a low percentage don't have what's called legitimacy? Because they didn't receive 50% plus one of all ballots cast, they don't have a mandate for their agenda that they pursue when they get on the dais. 3. Would you agree with me under plurality voting schemes, that which exist in Anaheim and other municipalities, that this is a problem widespread, not just unique to Anaheim, that a small but cohesive block of voters, a large minority, not a majority of the electorate or the people who turn out to vote, elect the winning candidates. In fact, a majority of voters actually end up casting their ballots for candidates other than those who win. What impact do you think these wasted votes have on turnout and participation in future elections and how about the legitimacy of city government, especially given that a majority of candidates who voters cast their ballot for never win. Dr. Hill said there was a lot there. She will try. In terms of proportional representation, she has not really looked at that one. That assumes you have parties and Anaheim doesn't have parties. She doesn't know how that would be workable when you don't have political parties. Cumulative or plurality vs. majority is kind of the key question there at the heart of the matter. Dr. Hill said there is not a definitive answer because like the other issues they have talked about, there is not one that is always 100% correct and works in every situation. She thinks there is not a straightforward answer. She said that Mr. Roberts did touch on the concern that it seems to be more or less one group of voters that tend to be winning the candidate of their choice in a lot of city council elections which is why we're here. That's what we're talking about. That is part of why we're here. In terms of wasted votes and not getting the candidate they want. That actually happens a lot in politics. It's not just in a plurality system. Part of the funny numbers is because it's a plurality system and it ends up being divided out differently. Some of it, is a numbers game that you have going on. We are here because part of the community does not feel like the have a voice in the current system. Under the cumulative voting that is going on with at -large districts, that is the current system, they are not able to elect candidates of their choice on any regular basis. It's not that you are able to get the person you want every single time, but is there some sort of regular representation. Under the current system it seems to be a problem. She doesn't want to throw out cumulative voting or plurality or majority vote because it might be different under a hybrid or a district system. It could work just fine. So you want Page 19 of 27 to be careful because these factors operate together and it depends on the larger context that you are using. You can't just separate them. You have touched on the concern which is part of why we are here and we are talking about how we might change things. David Diaz mentioned there were a lot of numbers being thrown around and you can spin numbers any way you want and then you can have opinions on what those numbers say. The presentations tonight were very good, but a lot of it is opinion. He said that they had a meeting when he was sitting on this board that was out in Anaheim Hills or Anaheim, and probably 15 people walked up to the podium and said with a translator, that they need 8 districts, repeated over and over. Based on a population of 341,000; that's 42,000 people per district if we divide it evenly. Three of the council members on the council presently live here in what we call the flatlands in the central area and west Anaheim, not in the hills. That's another fallacy that they are all from Anaheim Hills because they're not. If you really work with these people they care about all of the parts of Anaheim. They do so much work that I don't even think a lot of residents know what they do. Mr. Diaz said that there was one candidate who came in third place this year in the election who was not rich, according to the OCCORD numbers. According to OCCORD, you have to be rich to run here. He was not rich by any means. He also had thousands of dollars from a political action committee. He worked the Latino neighborhoods and promised them that he was going to be their representative. He promised he would represent them. He lost and he didn't get elected. So, Mr. Diaz said he thinks the point is participation. It's getting voters to turn out and to vote. Mr. Diaz said we are not in a communist country. You are involved in the process; it's that you choose not to be. Chair Pham thanked Mr. Diaz and asked if there were any other public comments. Ms. Pham thanked Dr. Hill for her presentation and her time. We put you on the spot numerous times so we appreciate it. Chair Pham referred back to item 6 for a vote. Refer to item6 for the vote. Staff Update on Moreno et al. v. City of Anaheim Mr. Garcia informed the committee that Vice Chair Dalati has requested at the last meeting an updte on the status of the lawsuit. Deputy City Attorney Robert Tyson will be providing a summary today. Summary of Mr. Robert Tyson's briefing. Mr. Tyson recounted that at his last update at the November meeting he described that the City had made a motion to stay the litigation, so that the City could consider the findings and recommendations of this Committee. This motion for a stay was originally set to be heard in December. A companion motion regarding some issues with the pleadings was also said to be heard at the same time. Mr. Tyson said that the court system can be slow. These original motions have yet to be heard. There were a series of continuances on small hearing dates. Most of those continuances originated from the court itself. Those initial motions are still pending and set to be heard March 26. As a result of these continuances, the case has not moved past what they call the early pleading stage. It is very likely this committee's work will be done and the final report will be issued to the city council long before the merits of that lawsuit will be decided. If a formal stay is issued in the case or any other significant procedural action is taken which might affect the timing of the resolution of the lawsuit, Mr. Tyson will advise the committee as it occurs. Page 20 of 27 Chair Pham asked if there were any questions from the committee. Vice Chair Dalati asked if the cost of the lawsuit is piling up or is it stopped as we speak. Mr. Tyson said he has not monitored the cost of the lawsuit. He is aware one of the committee members has been diligent about providing updates. He does not believe that work on the lawsuit has stopped on either side. These initial motions have not been heard. It certainly has delayed any full run up to a trial. He is speculating based on normal legal practices. Commissioner Armas asked if the committee could extend their time, would it be a little more forgiving as far as their hard set date. As of now what would your recommendation be? Mr. Tyson said Mr. Woodhead would like to answer and he could add to that if needed. Mr. Woodhead said that council adopted a clear resolution to conclude the committee's work and submit recommendations by May 31. So if more time were needed, they would need to ask the council if they would extend that time. It would take a council action to extend that time. Chair Pham interjected that she was not sure if the rest of the committee members wished to extend that time. She opened the floor for questions. Chair Pham has a question regarding the materials that Eric Altman from OCCORD provided regarding the lawsuit. Regarding the committee's mission regarding all the electoral systems with regard to districting and other possible systems, is the committee being used, she said the committee seems as it's being used as part of its argument for the lawsuit. If so can you explain how it is being used? Mr. Tyson asked Chair Pham to expand her question as he was not sure what she focused on. Chair Pham replied that the city has asked the judge to delay based on the committee's decision. Is that correct? Mr. Tyson said that is correct. The city asked the court to stay or delay the case until the committee's finding were complete and to give the council time to digest the committee's findings and perhaps implement what we call a political solution rather than a court mandated legal solution. Chair Pham said that they are using this as a defense case. So, she said that the committee does not need to decide on districting, correct? She said they don't even have to write that in, honestly because we were just mandated with a broad task? She said that for them to help with the lawsuit, she feels like they haven't actually had presentations specifically on districting. She knows that the city staff has tried to get presentations for the City of San Jose and such. Even with all the abundance of this information, she does not feel they have any information on districting which is why when she was appointed, she understood that to be one of the major points to consider and that they would decide on it. With the mandate, we don't even have to decide on it and the city lawsuit is requesting that the city delay the lawsuit for the committee's decision. Page 21 of 27 Mr. Tyson asked Chair Pham permission to speak. The chair granted it. Mr. Tyson stated the city made a request of the court. That request has not been ruled on yet. The case is proceeding slowly; it appears for reasons that had to do with the court itself at this point. So, the court hasn't made a ruling on whether it would choose to await of this process politically. Chair Pham said so the court hasn't made a decision on any of this. Mr. Tyson said no, when he stated that the motion was still pending and has yet to be heard. That motion has not been argued before the judge. It was briefed. He was provided some of the briefing papers but he has not ruled on that motion. Mr. Tyson said he believes it is the logjam of the court system that is delaying the case at this time. Chair Pham thanked him and ask if there is any chance of city council discussing settlement for this lawsuit. Mr. Tyson said settlement discussions are handled in closed session by city council which is typical with any public agency. The only time a public agency typically discusses with the public would be when they report that they agreed on a settlement. Chair Pham asked if they are considering it. Mr. Tyson said he is not privy to that information and it would be privileged even if he were Commissioner Day said Madam Chair; she wanted to bring clarity because words are important. Ms. Day that you chose the word that there was a violation of the CVRA but it's actually a complaint that is alleged at this stage. Ms. Day said it's important to specify. She said that her second point is that she begs to differ. Ms. Day thinks the staff has done a very good job. She thinks there has been some very good presentations and rather than look at it as you chose the word "delay," Ms. Day said she would prefer to look at it as the City Council is engaging it's citizenry for a very important decision. They have been voting a certain way for 150 years. She said it shouldn't be changed flippantly and we have heard many, many options, many more that we haven't even considered yet. Commissioner Day said she thinks it is important to respect the process they are going though which is a wonderful process of studying what is best for the future, the potential changes in our voting system. She is very grateful that the city is engaging its citizens. It is wonderful that everyone is here in the audience, the speakers. She would be horrified if it were done flippantly or without its due process. Chair Pham said, no she understands. The first public comment was about an organization that she didn't even know existed, maybe if possible they could put that on the agenda from this organization from 25 years has been advocating for districting. Ms. Pham said she finds that interesting, because she has never heard of this group in Anaheim. She said that she agrees they're not going to flip a switch and just change electoral systems. What she heard today was that Dr. Hill stated she feels like there is a large portion of the population who feels like their voice isn't being heard and all voices should be heard in a democratic system. Page 22 of 27 Commissioner Armas said he would like to elaborate on that point. He spoke on this last meeting He feels privileged to be here and that the council adopted this committee. We are here to look at this alleged violation. This lawsuit is really becoming trying because it's an allegation. It hasn't been proven one way or the other. It hasn't even been decided that there are any problems with our voting. They're here to consider all of this information. To portray it as we're being sued so we have do what a judge who doesn't live in the city nor does he really care about us to much, but he has his protocol to do, would be the one to decide how we are going to vote in our city that was set up through a charter system; that idea is ludicrous. If you're making that assumption that they are fighting this on a delay, a delay of what, getting facts, a delay of getting more information? A delay of what? Chair Pham said just a delay of spending more citizens' money. Commissioner Armas said at this point do you think that you could make an intelligent decision based on knowing what all our options are given that we're gathering information. Chair Pham acknowledged that there has been a lot of information. Commissioner Armas said he doesn't believe it's a delay or a tactic. It's an information gathering session where they are taking time to take this seriously. A lot of the residents are here too. It is a heated issue. So how could they rely on a judge and that would be the only alternative that they would have. Again, it's an allegation. They are not bound by it. You know what he may say. He'll say district. That's the easiest thing to do. That might not be what we want and we don't have to go that way. That is just one of our avenues. It's a fact finding mission. It's not a delay tactic. It's not a gimmick. It is the responsible thing for our council to do. Chair Pham said thank you for those comments. Vice Chair Dalati asked if it was true that the judge excused himself from the case. Mr. Tyson said, yes, that was one of the delays. The judge assigned to the case and they are just assigned by random number suddenly recused himself at one of the hearing dates. Vice Chair Dalati asked if the defense in the case was primarily the city attorney or outside counsel. Mr. Tyson said that it is primarily outside counsel. Vice Chair Dalati said every time he has hired an attorney he looks at his options of winning or losing the case after providing counsel with the facts and his counsel has replied it's a winner or a loser. Any directions from our outside counsel? Mr. Tyson said those are very good questions any time you're hiring an attorney. It will save you a lot of money. Whatever discussions went on between outside counsel and city council are privileged. Again, he is not privy to them and even if he were they would still be privileged. Chair Pham asked was there any reason given for the judge to recuse himself. Mr. Tyson said no and from the paperwork he's seen, no reason was given and he doesn't have to provide a reason. Sometimes judges give reasons but if he did, Mr. Tyson is not aware of them. Page 23 of 27 Commissioner agreed with Chair Pham on her comments about delaying the lawsuit. He said he understand that they are blaming the court system for delaying until December. There have been great presentations for which they are grateful. Most of the comments he has heard both from the public and from experts such as Dr. Hill today that the city is long overdue for district elections. A city this large, they are long overdue. How many more issues, how much unrest like the stuff that happened last year are we going to go through? He understands and he is grateful to be here and have an opportunity to have a say as a citizen and resident. At the end of the day, regardless of what our recommendation is, if a judge still decides something else, let's say it goes to the ballot, and the voters still decided to stay with the current system. He said he's not an attorney. Does that mean that the city continues to be violating the California Voting Rights Act? Is that a comment or a question asked an off screen commissioner. Commissioner Lopez said what if we decide no district elections, it's fine as is or the voters reject it or approve it or whatever, and there's a violation? Mr. Lopez asked if Mr. Tyson had an answer. Mr. Tyson said he thinks that if the city council through this process puts something on the ballot that was rejected by the voters, thus by default leaving the status quo, he thinks the lawsuit would simply proceed at that point. So the question as to whether the city was in violation of the Voting Rights Act standard would proceed at that point. Vice Chair Dalati said he did not hear. So are we or are we not in violation of the Voting Rights Act? Mr. Tyson said that is an issue that has not been decided in the courts yet. The case would proceed to try to decide that in that situation. Chair Pham asked to move to closing comments to give Commissioner Ma'ae the opportunity to give her closing comments before she has to leave since 2.5 hours have passed since the meeting began. 9. Committee Communications Action: Closing comments. Commissioner Ma'ae wanted to say that she doesn't think she could speak as eloquently as she would like. It is a bit disturbing that they keep coming back to this lawsuit. Yes it does exist and is in the court system now. Yes, they may be there perhaps as a result of that. Her opinion is that if council could make whatever decision they wanted to they could go ahead and proceed with this lawsuit and have no board or commission, no advisory no conversation about the changes that are going to impact our city. Yet, they have an opportunity to do that. She feels passionate about this. To think that they are being used in a way that is a politically motivated manner; these things happen. As Dr. Hill pointed out there is corruption with every political party, entity within the entire country in the world. No one is perfect. No one is without some sort of opinion, disdain or process, do they allow that to dictate what they are doing here. Do they allow those implications to dictate what their outcome might be as a committee? Do we sit here and have an open and intelligent dialogue about the issues in our city and do we have the ability to impact change in our city? That's personally what Commissioner Ma'ae said she is here for. Listen with an open mind to the professionals. They are not giving yes and no answers or defining what we need to do because just as Dr. Hill said there is no definite solution to every single city electoral system. It's going to be different for everyone, so let's Page 24 of 27 listen to what these professionals have to offer. Let's gain knowledge and information from that and then let's make a decision. Why are we sitting here attacking and accusing and speculating, let's stick to the facts, please. Thank you. Chair Pham said you did speak very eloquently and your passion is coming through. Have a good night. Commissioner Olesen said that tiresome is likely a generous and kind word when referring to hearing about this lawsuit. My understanding that the way this committee is supposed to function is outside and apart from that. The committee should be doing this whether there is a lawsuit or not. If the idea is to improve or validate the way we elect our officials; it should be done without the threat of a lawsuit. Whether the lawsuit exists, or doesn't exist, who cares? What we want to do is promote or develop a system that works best for everyone. That's the goal here. It should be done regardless of these outside items. They shouldn't be a consideration. In the long run, we are trying to decide what is the best way for this city to function in electing its representatives. That's all. Period. The other comments he had on what was handed out regarding the independent expenditures sheet that was handed out. Mr. Olesen's personal opinion, independent expenditures are the greatest evil that has ever afflicted our political system ever. He found it interesting that 2012 was left off because they hadn't filed their final forms. He is not sure when the final forms were due, but he is assuming they were due sometime before now. If 2012 were included in this, it would be a vastly different picture because this makes it appear the most independent expenditures gets elected. This was not the case in 2012. As the committee looks at and considers all this information, it is important to look at what is not there as well as what is there in your final analysis of the process. Commissioner Day thanked the chair. Ms. Day said one thing she had been thinking about and is very passionate about as a part of their mandate as a commission, is regarding voter registration. She thinks a large problem that has brought us here not just in Anaheim, but nationally there is an apathy. Something she would love to see at a future meeting if they could have voter registration forms available, so that for those who come to the meeting, they can take it home and encourage people to sign up to vote. That is part of the committee's job is to help people to register to vote. Part of the issue here is that we have a majority in Anaheim who behaves like a minority because they choose not to participate. She thinks that engaging all citizenry to be involved and Dr. Hill has complemented Anaheim by saying our numbers were actually higher than average. So that's exciting to know. Yet, she knows that there is so much more that they can do as a committee and a community. Her desire is particularly to seek out talent in areas, particularly in the west side. When she looked at the numbers that were provided by the city clerk, she really sees that west area is in large need of scouting for talent and engaging in voting. In central Anaheim, they talked about the numbers. They do have two council members representing that area. She will be very excited when they get into the ad hoc committees, she is looking forward to all the ideas and wonderful and exciting ways that they could reach out to Anaheim and being innovative, inspiring and engaging so that people will want to be involved. We are here at the library tonight. They have forms here at the library so that people can register to vote and pick them up on their way home tonight. Encourage someone. Pass them out. That would be a great positive step toward reaching our goal as a commissioner. Perhaps, when we are at a location that may not have the registration forms, possibly we could bring them and that will encourage people to do likewise. Commissioner Armas feels privileged that the city of Anaheim has given them this opportunity. We seem to be in an age where there is a great deal of corruption in government and he feels that this is a Page 25 of 27 great opportunity. He feels like they have gotten pretty much everything they have asked for relying on the recommendation of an outside committee. They could have made this decision on their own. We are privileged to live in Anaheim. They as a committee have a chance right now to do some really neat things and give some really good recommendations if we get the biases out of our heads. Some of the other cities and speakers we've had before; we're going to be one of those cities. We're going to be giving them our story about what works and what doesn't if we do our homework. If you look at what's going on. Look at New York. If we let our government dictate how we're going to think, we wouldn't have 16 oz. drinks over here. Look at our government when they tell us how we want to think or act. We see where that goes. He thinks they have a pretty neat job at hand and hopefully we will all do our jobs without any prejudice. Commissioner Lopez agreed with his fellow committee members that he is grateful to be there and again be part of voter engagement turnout, voter registration rallies. He is willing to go beyond this committee to do his fair share to do that. However, Dr. Hill said that one of the reasons why people don't register or that they are registered and they don't come out to vote is because they feel that their voice or vote doesn't count or that their candidate of choice is not going to make a difference. Why did the city council members to increase voter participation and registration and everything we know we can do to increase that. Again, we were formed to decide whether the city needs to go to district elections. That is the biggest point. They need to make a decision whether through the courts or here. And then, continue doing this. Why didn't they think of this before? Commissioner Real said he would like to thank Clara Turner from OCCORD for making this chart. To him, this is what it's all about. The chart represents some apathy. People don't care to go vote. Unfortunately it may result in fewer people going to the polls. Their job here is to advise the council when all is said and done on many issues not only districts. Encouraging voter registrations, engage the community groups. In politics it's right /left, right/wrong. It's going to be the lesser of the two evils that we have to live with whether we like it or not. One thing for certain is that if people do not get to the polls, they will not be able to elect their candidate the winner. Vice Chair Dalati in response to Commissioners Ma'ae and Olesen, he very respectfully disagrees. He agrees on one thing. They should take this as positive as they can. If there is need for change they should change it. Why he disagrees, this is the land of the law and the law rules. If all of us decider there is no need for districting then the courts find that the city is in violation of the voters rights act. Then they have to do what the court says. The law is crucial and very important. Frankly, he thinks it's a major decision factor for him because the law does rule. Chair Pham said at the last few meetings she probably sounded like the ungrateful spoiled child, not being thankful for anything. She knows city staff has done a lot of work on this and she thanked them for putting up with the committee. She is going to reiterate what she said earlier. She joined this committee because districting was a huge part of the reason why this commission was formed. It may because of timing. They have had two presentations on voter turnout. They have yet to have one presentation strictly solely on districting. They do have a memo about the City of San Jose. She requested that all committee members please read it. She would like to make it an agenda item for the next meeting to discuss it. They do have similar issues while their population size is different. It was done in the 1970's so they can see what has resulted since San Jose is so diverse. Perhaps having the committee Anaheim HOME who would like to have 15 minutes, could we give them 15 minutes? Mr. Garcia asked if that was a formal request. Page 26 of 27 Chair Pham said yes. Mr. Garcia reminded them that they did hear from Modesto who was at -large and moved to districts with a very similar process to ours and size. You can review that online. Chair Pham thanked Dr. Hill for the presentation and responding to all the lengthy questions. She is glad to be a part of a lively discussion where they can agree to disagree and she is looking forward to the next meeting. 10. Adjournment The meeting was adjourned by Chair Pham at 9:16 p.m. Page 27 of 27 Resnectfidiv Submitted_