1978/06/0578-6~7.
Main Library, 500 West Broadway, Anaheim, California, June 5, 1978, 3:00 P.M.
COUNCIL MINUTES
The City Council of the City of Anaheim met in adjourned regular
session.
PRESENT:
ABSENT:
PRESENT:
COUNCIL MEMBERS:
Roth and Seymour
COUNCIL MEMBERS: None
CITY MANAGER: William 0. Talley
CITY ATTORNEY: William P. Hopkins
CITY CLERK: Linda D. Roberts
CHARTER REVIEW COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
Overholt, Kaywood, Kott (entered at 4:00 p.m.),
Gaylen Compton, Ben Bay and
Dan VanDorpe
Mayor Seymour called the meeting to order and welcomed those in
attendance to the adjourned regular Council meeting.
105/142: DISCUSSION OF POSSIBLE CITY CHARTER AMENDMENTS: Mayor Seymour announced
that the workshop session was to discuss potential ballot questions which could
lead to amendment to the City Charter. He acknowleged Mr. Qaylen Compton and
Mr. Ben Bay who were appointed to the Charter Review Committee (CRC) and explained
that the Council's concept was to work simple items out amongst themselves, thus
precluding the necessity of having to burden the CRC with such items. If no agree-
ment could be reached, those would then be referred to the Committee. The two
items for Council consideration were: (1) increasing the size of the City Council
to 7 members and under what conditions and (2) the method of electing the Mayor.
142: DISCUSSION - EXPANSION OF THE COUNCIL TO SEVEN MEMBERS: Councilman Roth first
spoke to the issue of a 7-member Council which he supported as follows: the great
increase in population now justified expansion of the Council to 7 members; 7
member Councils were standard in cities where the City Manager/City Council form
of government existed; the expansion would bring about a decrease in the mathematical
probabilities of a crucial one vote decision; there would be less chance of a
4 to 3 vote than a 3 to 2 vote; a reduction in close votes would give better
direction to the City management, specifically to the City Manager; a 7-member
Council would add increased business experience and diversification of viewpoints;
the change would increase the pool of potential candidates for the office of Mayor
under the present system, wherein only incumbents were eligible to run for office.
A brief discussion then followed between the Mayor and Councilman Roth relative
to how the Council would be increased to 7. At the conclusion, Councilman Roth
stated that when discussing the mechanics of the situation, it was first necessary
to determine how the Mayor was going to be elected. He maintained it was important
that input on the matter be solicited from the Charter Review Committee.
Councilwoman Kaywood stated that initially she favored a 7-member Council, but
subsequently checked with those cities with 7 members and found that it did not
work in actuality. The politics now involved in gaining a third vote became even
more complicated in trying to gain a fourth. As well, all members would feel that
they had to speak whether or not it was necessary, thus additional staff time would
be necessitated and it would become more costly having to pay two additional people.
She questioned any added benefits that might be derived from a 7-member Council,
considering the added costs and problems that would occur.
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Main Library, 500 West Broadway, Anaheim, California, June 5, 1978, 3:00 P.M.
COUNCIL MINUTES
Councilman Overholt stated he did not have strong feelings about the matter one
way or the other although he was used to a 5-member body for 9 years as a member
of the School Board and never experienced any problem with it. When it came to
a close vote, it was perhaps time to take another look at the issue. He would
be agreeable to a Charter Review Study of the matter. Relative to the concept
of districting which had been broached previously, Councilman Overholt stated
he was opposed. Councilman Roth stated that he was also opposed to Councilmanic
districts.
Councilman Roth then recounted the fact that he suggested a CRC be formed after
the municipal election last April to review the Charter, 2 of the 3 specific
items being the election of the Mayor and expansion of the Council. Thereafter,
Mayor Seymour suggested that those two issues could be resolved amongst the
Council although he (Roth) believed that the Committee should review these along
with a complete review of the Charter.
Mayor Seymour spoke to the matter relative to ~he two items alone. He believed
that the Council Members had been in the community long enough and were active
enough to know what the public might be interested in voting on. Ail that was
necessary was to decide what should be placed on the ballot. It was with that
in mind that he suggested the two specific issues (mayoral election and expan-
sion of the Council) be discussed amongst the Council because he was n~t in favor
of spending a great deal of citizens time in providing input, study, debate and
staff time only to have a recommendation come back with the same conclusions as
the Council. The issues were simple--specifically under discussion, expansion
to 7 members. It was a matter of directing the City Attorney to draw up the
ballot language as to whether or not the Council should continue as at present
with 5 members or be expanded to 7. Subsequently, the Council would decide on
the final ballot language.
Mr. Ben Bay stated that he was on the last CRC and the problem was that the
Committee did not debate as to whether or not an issue should be placed on the
ballot, but whether they liked the idea or not. He would not favor a repeat
of such an occurrence, and as a member of the new CRC, he was approaching his
task with the idea that people should have a choice to choose. The Council
started off voicing its opinion as to whether or not they liked the idea and
that was not the question.
Mr. Gaylen Compton stated that having served on the last CRC, he took exception
to the extent that he felt the Council formed the Committee presuming there was
some interest in putting an issue on the ballot. If that was predetermined, what
Mr. Bay stated was true, but in order to determine what to place on the ballot,
it was necessary to discuss one's feelings about a particular item.
Mayor Seymour reiterated his opinion relative to the issue as well as his readiness
in directing the City Attorney to prepare an amendment to the Charter that would
permit expansion from 5 to 7, while at the same time devising a question if the
Council make-up should be left as is.
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Main Library., 500 West Broadway, Anaheim, California, June 5, 1978, 3:00 P.M.
COUNCIL MINUTES
Councilwoman Kaywood expressed her concern that such questions should be very
clearly written with the pros and cons listed.
Further discussion followed, wherein Councilman Roth outlined the basis for
his conclusion that there was an interest on the part of the people relative
to the question of expanding the Council.
Councilman Seymour thereupon moved to direct the City Attorney to develop
ballot language to increase the size of the Council from 5 to 7 members, as
well as ballot language indicating that the structure should be left in its
present status; subsequently, the language would be submitted to the Council
for a final decision and if a decision could not be made at that point, sub-
mit the matter to the CRC. Councilman Roth seconded the motion.
Before a vote was taken, Councilwoman Kaywood stated that she would like to
have the 3 cities in Orange County with 7-member Councils (Huntington Beach,
Santa Ana and New-port Beach) polled as to their feelings relative to their
structures. Mayor Seymour invited her to send letters to each of the Council
Members of those cities.
A vote was then taken on the foregoing motion. Councilman Kott was absent.
MOTION CARRIED.
142: DISCUSSION - METHOD OF ELECTING THE MAYOR: Councilman Roth noted that
confusion had arisen in the last two years amongst the electorate in having to
vote twice for one person, once for Council Members and once for Mayor. As well,
the people believed they had an opportunity to select their own Mayor, but in
essence, they could only vote for 2 or 3 members of the Council, and that was not
what they wanted. On the other hand, he noted the election that took place in
Garden 'Grove where the Mayor's seat was open to anyone and in the final analysis,
a man was elected without any expertise relative to municipal government thus
resulting in a lengthy training process. Councilman Roth also expressed his dis-
like relative to two-year terms for Mayor, bringing about the necessity for more
frequent and costly campaigns. He also referred to a 1976 editorial with which
he a~reed, copies of which he passed to the Council,.wherein it indicated there
was no "sure fire" way to pick a Mayor. Although he disliked going backwards, he
believed that the lesser of all evils regarding selection of a Mayor to be the
procedure the City had prior to the last Charter Amendment change--that is, that
the Council Members themselves select their Mayor on a one- or two-year basis,
one of the many reasons for which lay in the fact that in reality, they were
electing a Chairman of the Board of Directors. This method also gave the Council
the right, by a majority vote, to remove that person as Chairman and replace
that member with someone else, whereas now it would require a ~ecall process
which was very difficult and expensive. The Charter presently stated the Mayor's
responsibility as being 2-fold: (1) the Mayor is the ceremonial head of the
City and (2) the Mayor is responsible for conducting Council meetings. If a
strong Mayor form of government was desired in Anaheim, the Charter would have to
be changed. He conceded the question was a very complex one.
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Main Library, 500 West Broadway, Anaheim, California, June 5, 1978, 3:00 P.M.
COUNCIL MINUTES
Councilwoman Kaywood agreed with Councilman Roth that the old way was the better
way although it did not seem so at the time becausev-~m-½e~-op~m~om;-am-~mp~p~m~
May~-wa~-~-e~eev--$~e-a~-ag~eed-~a~-~½e-~me~me~-~e~em~y-w~-~~
b~e-~e-ew~v--$he-be~eved-ehe-psyeh~y-~*-~w&~-*he-ma~&*y-~-*he-~~~$~
Councilman Overholt stated that he had two concerns, one was evidenced in the last
campaign when a slate was circulated wherein the Mayor was placed on the slate for
Mayor only and not as a Council candidate. If the vote turned out accordingly, the
people would not have been voting for what they wanted since it was necessary to be
a Council Member in order to also be Mayor. Further, if the previous Mayor had
chosen to run, the counter preparation by Mayor Seymour would have meant that those
candidates would have spent between $100,000 and $150,000 combined for the position
of Mayor in the City. The cost of politics was a very bothersome aspect to him and
a negative feature of having a contested public election of a Mayor.
Councilman Overholt continued that, as well, an elected Mayor might feel his elec-~_~
tion placed him above other Council Members or result in delving into other admin-
istrative matters that would interfere with the Council/City Manager form of govern-
ment which worked well. There was no doubt that the Mayor would be elected by the
people, but he would only have 1 of 5 (or 7) votes. He believed that a Mayor
elected by the people had a greater onus to it than if elected by Council Members.
In concluding, in considering the pros and cons, Councilman Overholt stated that
from his standpoint, the biggest argument against electing a Mayor was the potential
pitfall of the electorate voting a slate of candidates wherein the Mayor would have
been out, not only as a Council Person, but also as Mayor.
Councilman Roth recalled in a prior election where the candidate was running strong
in a precinct for Mayor, but not for Council. The people wanted him as Mayor, but
did not care if he was a Council Person.
Mayor Seymour also explained the difficulties he encountered in explaining to
citizens during his campaign what the Charter required and why they had to vote
twice. Although he was successful in clarifying the situation as was evidenced
by the almost exact number of votes he received for both Mayor and Council, it
was expensive to accomplish.
Councilman Kott entered the Multipurpose Room. (4:00 P.M.)
Mayor Seymour continued along the lines of the confusion involved in the present
method of electing the Mayor. He stated, however, that the electorate through the
initiative process clearly signified that they wanted to vote for their
In her opinion, an unpopular Mayor was then in office, and that's why the peti-
tions were signed as they were, with the confusion in the amendment, particularly
having to vote twice for the same person. The size of the campaign also concerned -~
her. The two-year term might be a problem, since a person might want to serve for
one year, but not two. She also believed it was good psychology to have in mind
that the majority of the Council could remove the Mayor. Although it's probably in-
flammmtory to say the people don't necessarily know who the best choice is, because
the Council works together each week, it is nevertheless a true fact. She pointed
out how few people attend Council meetings to observe for themselves, except on
emotional items in which they are involved personally. (See minutes of September 5, 1978)
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Main Library', 500 West Broadway, Anaheim, California, June 5, 1978, 3:00 P.M.
COUNCIL MINUTES
Mayor. Although they may not have understood clearly that they could only elect
one of the two or three Councilpeople who chose to run, they understood they
would have the right to actually vote for the person for that office. He be-
lieved that they had a responsibility to the electorate to try and clarify the
situation. Thus, he could support two questions being placed on the ballot:
(1) give the electorate the choice of returning to the old method as previously
articulated or (2) a "cleanup" version of the present method. He thereupon
defined what he would propose: (1) the office of Mayor should be opened up to
any man or woman on the street (qualified elector) and (2) the office of Mayor
should be a separate one, but with no more power than at present (ceremonial
head of the City and Chairman of the Council meeting). The latter would eliminate
the problem of voting twice and make the office separate rather than Mayor and
Council person. His ~hird proposal would be that the office of Mayor be a
4-year term, rather than 2, considering the expense of running a campaign,
although he did not care to make the final decision as to how that would be
placed on the ballot. However, if the Council were of the opinion that it
should remain at 2 years, he would not be in. opposition. Relative to the
question of campaign expenses, the CRC had been charged specifically with
looking at that expensive process and he was hopeful that sound recommendations
would be forthcoming from the Committee on that aspect.
Mayor Seymour then briefed Councilman Kott on what had been discussed and voted
upon during his absence earlier in the meeting.
Mr. Compton stated he had a problem in trying to separate the election of Council-
man and Mayor and did not believe it fair for a person to have to choose whether
they wanted to run for Mayor or Councilman because they would perhaps want to run
for both. He had thought about the procedural aspects and perhaps the possibility
of utilizing two ballot cards instead of one.
Mr. Dan VanDorpe stated that he personally favored the old method of electing the
Mayor, but agreed with Mayor Seymour that people should have the right to make
that decision.
Mr. Bay stated his opinion as to whether or not he favored a particular method
was immaterial. He believed the following should be on the ballot: (1) present
method, and (2) Council selection by a majority, and if he could be shown the
mechanics of how to clean up and make work a method of election by voting separ-
ately for the office of Mayor, then that should also be placed on the ballot.
Discussion followed between the Mayor, Messrs. Bay and Compton relative to some
of the possibilities in separating the office.
Councilman Kott noted that there was still confusion to some extent. He believed
that anyone who wished to run for the office of Mayor should be able to do so and
the mechanics could somehow be worked out. He wanted to see the issue resolved by
the City Attorney in order to give the Council an opportunity to review it.
Relative to the size of the Council, upon which action had been taken before his
arrival, Councilman Kott further stated that he did not see any point in having
a 7-member Council, as opposed to 5 because the 5 were at large and the 7 would
also be at large. Thus, the expandsion to 7 would create additional costs to
the City with no regard to geographic location. However, if geographic locations
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blain Library, 500 West Broadway, Anaheim, California, June 5, 1978, 3:00 P.M.
COUNCIL MINUTES
were to be a consideration and thus the reason for a greater number of Council
representatives, he maintained it would be a step toward the ward system. Since
the present 5 members were at large, he did not see any advantage to the citizen
or better representation merely because of a greater number of Council Members.
Councilman Kott then spoke to the issue of campaign spending and noted first that
he was prepared to offer all three issues, including the campaign matter to the
people for a decision. Relative to the limitation of campaign donations, he
believed it to be best to incorporate such a limitation as an ordinance as opposed
to a Charter Amendment. He reasoned that campaign limitations might be changed
from time to time as a change in the economy occurred due to inflation. Although
it would still take 3 votes of the Council to make the change in either case, it
would be less cumbersome to do so in the case of an ordinance. He agreed with
Councilwoman Kaywood that a formula could be applied, but he did not want to
lock in a certain amount. He did favor a limitation and recalled that he had
offered such an ordinance 3 or 4 months prior.
Councilwoman Kaywood expressed her concerns relative, to electing someone to the
office of Mayor with no prior experience. She believed in would be to the
detriment of the people of the City, especially for a 4-year term. She did
agree that an election every two years was expensive in terms of money and time
and the energy necessary, but she would be opposed to a 4-year term of' office
for Mayor. She did not believe that the average person had any idea of the
enormity of the job, and as an analogy, noted that companies did not hire a
person off the street with no previous experience. She emphasized that in
the best interest of the City, it was far better to have someone who had train-
ing. Mayor Seymour took issue with the inference that the public did not know
what it was voting on and he could never accept that, but would rather entrust
the public even though at times mistakes were made.
Councilman Seymour thereupon moved to direct the City Attorney to prepare ballot
language on the following: (1) revert the process of electing Mayor back to the
previous procedure by selection of a majority vote of the Council; (2) revise
the method of electing presently to reflect, a) that any qualified elector would
be eligible to run for the office of Mayor, b) that the office of Mayor carry with
it no more powers than at present; (3) changing the term of office from two years
to four years. Councilman Roth seconded the motion.
Before a vote was taken, the Mayor clarified for Councilwoman Kaywood that the
office of Mayor would be a separate one with no more powers and no more duality.
Councilman Overholt stated that the two items would be amendments, but the electorate
could also vote for neither, thus keeping the present method of election. Mayor
Seymour stated he did not intend that.
Councilman Overholt continued that he could then not support the motion because his
concern was that the City Attorney was being directed to prepare the language for
the revised form of electing the Mayor, and he was not convinced that they had
all the input necessary. He preferred to have the CRC come up with the very best,
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COUNCIL MINUTES
cleaned up, revised mayoral election system and bring it back to the Council.
He was not prepared to vote on the motion as being the best solution.
Councilman Roth stated the only reason he seconded the motion was due to the
fact that it would subsequently be submitted to the Council and if the Council
was not satisfied, it would be referred to the CRC.
Councilman Overholt wanted Messrs. Bay and Compton to be able to work on the
matter because they were concerned about it and had previous experience having
served on a prior committee. He did not believe the City Attorney could write
an amendment including the 3 proposals without other involvements. He maintained
that the election of the Mayor was inextricably involved with campaign expenditure
limitation and if the proposal were placed on the ballot and passed, continually
more expensive campaigns would result.
Mayor Seymour suggested informally polling the Council and if a clear majority
indicated they did not want to have anything to do with the proposal, he did not
want to delay the process since it had been agreed that the issues would be placed
on the November ballot to insure the largest vote possible.
Councilwoman Kaywood and Councilman Overholt indicated that they did not favor
the proposition.
Councilman Overholt believed there was a better way to elect the Mayor than at
present, but he was not certain that the 3-point direction proposed was that
better way. He reiterated he would like the benefit of Messrs. Bay and Compton's
thinking because they were sophisticated in that area. He repeated that a change
in the method of electing the Mayor was tied into the limitation of campaign con-
tributions, and he did not want a high cost involved in the election of a Mayor.
After a further brief discussion revolving around the matter, a vote was taken
on the foregoing motion as articulated. Council Members Overholt ~andKaywood
voted "No". MOTION CARRIED.
Councilman Kott submitted the names of his two appointees to the CRC, Glenn Fry
and Jane Jowdy.
The first meeting of the Charter Review Committee was then set for Monday, June 12,
1978, 7:00 p.m., in the Multipurpose Room of the Main Library, wherein the Mayor
indicated he would be in attendance to give instructions.
ADJOURNMENT: Councilman Roth moved to adjourn. Councilman Seymour seconded the
motion. MOTION CARRIED.
Adjourned: 4:35 P.M.