1978/06/1278-724
Main Library - 500 West Broadway - COUNCIL MINUTES - June 12~ 1978~ 7:00 P.M.
The City Council of the City of Anaheim met in adjourned regular
session.
PRESENT:
ABSENT:
PRESENT:
ABSENT:
PRESENT:
PRESENT:
COUNCIL MEMBERS: Overholt, Kaywood, Kott, Roth and Seymour
COUNCIL MEMBERS: None
PLANNING COMMISSION: David, Linn, King, Tolar, Barnes and Herbst
PLANNING COMMISSION: Johnson
HACMAC: Buffington, Hall, Gowa, Pinson, Rau and Walsh
CITY MANAGER: William O. Talley
CITY ATTORNEY: William P. Hopkins
CITY CLERK: Linda D. Roberts
PLANNING DIRECTOR: Ron Thompson
ASSISTANT PLANNING DIRECTOR FOR PLANNING: Phil Schwartze
ASSISTANT PLANNING DIRECTOR FOR ZONING: Annika Santalahti
Mayor Seymour called the Council to order at 7:00 p.m. for the
purpose of conducting a joint meeting with the City Planning
Commission and the Hill and Canyon Municipal Advisory Committee
(HACMAC).
Chairmen Tolar and Buffington called their respective Boards to
order, each having sufficient members present to constitute a
quorum.
Prior to proceeding with the Agenda prepared for the meeting, Mayor Seymour ex-
plained for Planning Commissioner Tolar that the role of the Planning Commission
in Redevelopment was not inadvertently left off the list of items to be discussed
this evening, but rather would be scheduled at a meeting of both the Planning
Commission and Community Redevelopment Commission in the near future.
Mayor Seymour made a brief introductory statement explaining that this particular
joint session and the agenda for discussion came about as a result of meetings
between the Council Liaison Committee dealing with land use planning, zoning and
HACMAC functions (Councilwoman Kaywood and himself) and the leadership of both
the Planning Commission and HACMAC. He stressed that he hoped the dialogue between
the three groups would be beneficial in bringing the three closer for the purpose
of working together for the benefit of all the citizens of Anaheim.
A. APARTMENT HOUSE CONVERSIONS: Mayor Seymour noted that this item was placed on
the agenda in response to concerns expressed by Planning Commission Members as to
what the basis or standards would be for conversion of apartment houses to condo-
miniums. Councilwoman Kaywood noted that in the past, there was a unanimous feeling
among Council Members that apartments were built to be apartments and that condominums
had different standards. Therefore, when apartments applied for conversion to allow
ownership as condominium units, they could not meet the condominium criteria because
of (1) shortage of parking spaces; (2) lack of permanent storage space for residents;
(.3) the lack of soundproofing or insUlation between common walls. She summarized
that, in general, apartments were built for transients and not for permanent living.
Councilwoman Kaywood noted with the current tight housing market and low vacancy
factor in apartments of two to three percent, the availability of low-cost rental
units has become even more strained, and, inher oPinion, apartment~house conversions
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Main Librar~ - 500 West Broadway - COUNCIL MINUTES - June 12~ 1978, 7:00 P.M.
have taken housing away from a segment of the market. She also noted that builders
have used the intention of developing housing for senior citizens as a ploy to
circumvent parking requirements, and then define seniors as those 50 years of
age or older.
Councilman Roth stated that his main concern is the continuous problem of how to
provide fairly good residential properties for low and medium income families.
He noted that there are many people attempting to place their names on lists for
purchase of such apartment house conversions to condominiums. He voiced his belief
that involvement by ownership in a property will greatly improve the environment
for living. He also was of the opinion that the City should not have two standards,
one which is good enough for apartment living, but not good enough for condominiums.
He concluded that he is very interested in the apartment conversions as possible
lower cost residential properties and felt the Council should consider each project
on its own merits and not give any blanket approval or disapproval.
Councilman Kott was of the opinion that if an apartment owner desires to convert
his property to condominiums, then he should have that right unless it is not in
the best interest of the neighborhood or the building itself. He agreed each should
be judged on its own merit.
Mayor Seymour stated that most apartment housing currently existing in the community
was built more than 10 years ago and the majority of that stock under the old park-
ing requirements of 1~:1; therefore, most of these buildings cannot meet the first
test applied when considering conversions, that of parking.
Mayor Seymour commented further that perhaps the City Planning Commission might
consider whether some of the other standards such as density or distances between
buildings and allow some flexibility in these areas as trade-offs to insure that
the City has a variety of low and middle income housing available. He noted that
the only way any new construction will provide such housing opportunities for
low and middle income is through a subsidized program. He voiced the opinion that
the City has to find a vehicle to make lower income housing opportunities available
other than the Federal subsidy programs, and he felt apartment conversions to be
an exciting opportunity.
During additional discussion, Planning Commissioner Tolar pointed out that according
to the recognized standards for new construction today, these older apartment pro-
jects would not even qualify for compliance under the current RM-1200 zone and
site development standards. He concurred that there is a need for low-cost housing,
but in the area of apartment conversion to ownership pointed out that there is a
wide disparity between the criteria for new construction and what exists in these
older apartment units. Using a recent apartment conversion project as an example,
he noted that the Planning Commission felt it was so far removed from the City's
standards and criteria that they voted 7-0 to deny it, and then the developers
made some changes to clean it up somewhat before they brought it before the City
Council. He voiced the opinion that the Council and Planning Commission need
better communication in relationship to conversions, specifically in the form of
better guidelines if they are both of the same philosophical approach to the con-
versions.
Mayor Seymour concurred with Commissioner Tolar and noted that the Council will
most likely continue to approve such projects after denial by the Planning Commis-
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Main Library - 500 West Broadway - COUNCIL MINUTES - June 12~ 1978~ 7:00 P.M.
sion because of the stringent standards the Planning Commission is dealing with,
and that is why these standards should now be reviewed and some guidelines or
criteria developed for apartment to condominium conversions which are more con-
sistent in actual practice.
Commissioner Herbst noted that the developers are conscious of the fact that
apartment house conversions are very lucrative and he felt it important that
the City review its standards and in particular that a conversion project be
reviewed as to whether or not the developer would be allowed to build it today
under present condominium standards. He also felt the developer should know,
at staff level, before he gets to the Planning Commission and City Council, that
he has certain criteria to meet.
At the conclusion of Planning Commission discussion, Mayor Seymour summarized
that the Council is seeking the help of the Planning Commission to review the
situation and determine whether or not there is an area of reasonableness some-
where between what current criteria and standards are and what exi'sts in these
older apartment house projects, to develop more reasonable apartment houses to
condominium conversion standards.
In response to concerns raised by Planning Commissioners David and Linn regarding
what will occur to those low-income rental families who may be ultimately displaced
by such conversions, Mayor Seymour stated that he is satisfied that the City of
Anaheim has met its responsibilities as far as providing a percentage of its
housing stock in apartment units; and secondly, he noted that even with a lessening
of standards, new construction could not come in with condominium units at less
than $65,000 each, which would not address the need for low-income housing. He
reiterated that the only alternative he could see at this time to provide for low-
income housing is through a subsidized program.
Commissioner David stated that he is anxiously awaiting the results of a study
being prepared by one of the Community Development Department offices which should
generate some kind of action on the identification of land available for low-cost
housing. He voiced the opinion that the Planning Commission should take a leader-
ship position in this area.
At the conclusion of discussion on apartment house condominium conversions, Mayor
Seymour summarized that he would construe the Council's input to the Planning
Commission to indicate that in this review of the criteria for conversions, they
hold tight onto the parking standards, but perhaps be more flexible in the area
of density or in the 6 to 8 other technical types of variances which usually need
to be requested.
Councilman Kott interjected that to his thinking, the Council and' Planning Commis-
sion are intermixing social kinds of problems in their discussion of land use plan-
ning and commented that when you raise the price of a piece of real estate, you wiii
eliminate the ability of certain people from a given economic category to live, but
this is not a resolution of the basic social problem which creates the slums.
B. LOT FRONTAGES IN HILL AND CANYON AREA: Mr. Lynn Buffington stated that he felt
the Planning Commission recommendations on these matters were very consistent. There
was only one major area in which probably the HACMAC recommendation was very conserva-
tive and that was in regard to percentages of flag lots. In general he summarized
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that the HACMAC Members feel good about the situation and the results of discus-
sions. He reported there is one item yet to be resolved and that pertained to
RS-HS-10,000 and sideyard set back.
Mrs. Hall concurred that the discussions between HACMAC and Planning Commission
have been good; that the Planning Commission Members have listened to the HACMAC
input, and compromises have been worked out. She noted also that there are some
very large tracts now being submitted for approval which she felt were obviously
being timed to beat the new ordinance.
A brief discussion was held with Miss Santalahti reporting which tracts were
recently submitted for approval in the Hill and Canyon area.
Mayor Seymour concluded that the problem lies in the fact that many developers
can achieve greater densities by using flag lots. He felt that the study and
discussions held between the Planning Commission and HACMAC had worked out these
problem areas.
Commissioner Barnes interjected that there are some Planning Commission Members
who are in agreement with the use of flag lots to create more frontages on the
street.
C. HACMAC PURPOSE, FUNCTION AND TIMING: Mayor Seymour reviewed the history of
HACMAC noting that it came into being after the Hill and Canyon Task Force had
accomplished their goals, primarily because the City Council recognized that
this form for both developers and homeowner representatives provides an effective
sounding board at which each might air their complaints. He noted that there has
been some concern expressed that there be a reclarification of HACMAC, its duties
and how it functions and its relationship with the Planning Commission. He con-
cluded that he believed the City Council wishes to continue this Board as a vehicle
of communication with the Hill and Canyon area and questioned how HACMAC Members
might envision their role, as well as how they feel they might do a more effective
and more efficient job.
Mr. Buffington recalled that initially when HACMAC was formed, they took the
approach of being an advance planning group whose function was to work with
developers in advance; that they picked up the pulse of the community and
attempted to eliminate potential problems before the project got to Planning
Commission or City Council. He added that a major function of HACMAC, in his
opinion, would be to implement the amended General Plan for the Hill and Canyon
area; to concern itself with the day-to-day problems of the Canyon residents and
homeowners associations. He recalled that although HACMAC is an advisory group and
has taken that approach, some comments they have made have been confusing to others.
Therefore, they have adopted a more formal approach to their recommendations and
comments to the Planning Commission, to make these more definitive in the hopes of
reducing this confusion.
Councilman Roth stated that he would like to hear comments from the Planning
Commissioners on this matter because of his personal concern that there might
be a duplication of efforts. He noted that with the number of people it takes
to support this advisory group and the attendant cost, it is important to determine
whether or not the City is requiring the same people who have met with HACMAC to
go through the same exercise before the Planning Commission. He added that if the
HACMAC approach is a valid one, then why should there not be a municipal advisory
committee established for other areas of the City?
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Main Library - 500 West Broadway - COUNCIL MINUTES - June 12~ 1978~ 7:00 P.M.
Planning Commissioner Tolar stated that he does see some duplication in HACMAC
efforts and noted that developers have voiced concerns to him that review by
HACMAC of their project adds another level of bureacracy through which they
have to negotiate prior to getting their development approved. In addition
he noted that the media have in the past misconstrued HACMAC recommendations
and supported the projects as approved or disapproved, which certain developers
accepted as the bottom line. Commissioner Tolar concluded that basically, while
he feels the dialogue coming out of HACMAC does some good, it still puts the
developers in the position of presenting their project to HACMAC and then to the
Planning Commission.
Commissioner Barnes pointed out that the Planning Commission has been asked to
delay consideration of a project until HACMAC has had time to review it. She
stressed that Planning Commission Members receive their agendas and packets on
Friday and have only the weekend in which to study them before making decisions
on Monday. She felt it unfair to keep a developer waiting a month or so for
HACMAC to review his project. She also referred to certain map~ which are
provided HACMAC, but not to Planning Commission. She was of the opinion that
many of the decisions the Planning Commission has made would have been made
exactly the same had they had no input at all from HACMAC.
Commissioner Linn expressed the views that HACMAC does have a function and purpose
and perhaps the amount of money it takes to support that group is the price of
peace in the Planning Commission and City Council meetings. Although he concurred
the Planning Commission might have reached the same decision without input from
HACMAC, he nevertheless felt there is value in having a place where people in the
area can go to express their opinions.
Commissioner Herbst stated that within the past 30 days, HACMAC had given the
Planning Commission input which they would not otherwise have had because these
people live in the area, know the problem, and can assist the Planning Commission
in seeing that there is no duplication of errors made in the past. He voiced
the opinion that the HACMAC should, however, review only new development
planning and not variances and conditional use permits. He remarked that he did
not think it is fair to the applicant that HACMAC could review and make recommen-
dations without benefit of a public hearing and that there is no way to know if
both sides have been heard. He added that he felt it is advantageous to continue
HACMAC review and input on new project planning.
At the conclusion of comments from the Planning Commission, Mayor Seymour stated
that he strongly felt that whatever the cost which is attached to HACMAC is well
worth it, even five-fold. He stated that perhaps the Planning Commission and
Council are too soon forgetting the numbers of irate Hill and Canyon residents
in the Chambers and the laborious, lengthy and continued hearings which were
necessary before some Planning Commission items could be resolved.
Commission Tolar concurred with the earlier comment that the HACMAC input and
relationship to new development is invaluable, however he felt that their review
of variances and conditional use permits is a duplication and is not necessary
to accomplish Council's goals. In response to this comment, Mayor Seymour pointed
out a recent conditional use permit pertaining to a liquor store over which there
was great concern of the people living nearby. It was also pointed out that the
need for a municipal advisory commission is much greater in the Hill and Canyon area
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Main Library - 500 West Broadway - COUNCIL MINUTES - June 12~ 19.78~ 7:00 P.M.
because that property is only 15 percent developed, whereas other areas of the
City are 85 percent developed°
In response to Councilwoman Kaywood, Mrs. Hall explained that the maps earlier
referred to are prQvided by developers at no cost to the City. She explained
that prior to HACMAC, each homeowner group was obtaining copies of maps and
EIRs from developers and each homeowner group, acting as individual agents for
their area, would take staff time asking questions. The developers are happy
to provide these maps and EIRs because they wish the public to accept their
projects. She concluded that the same work is now being done as a group which
used to be done individually by 10 or 12 people as homeowner group representatives.
Speaking as a developer, Mr. Buffington felt HACMAC has, in most cases, helped to
eliminate the need for a developer to seek acceptance of his project from various
community groups and has therefore, shortened the time it takes for approval.
HACMAC Member John Rau pointed out that the area represented by HACMAC is a
growth area; that the study undertaken by the Council some time ago indicated
a potential impact of a $57 million loss to the City in terms of costs of
municipal services to support the area if developed in certain ways. He felt
the Council has a moral obligation to look closely at these considerations.
Mr. Rau reported that HACMAC has taken a look at how they best represent them-
selves and instituted some positive steps toward providing a more specific and
accurate reflection of their thinking by showing the numbers of favorable and
unfavorable votes on issues. In addition, they will be sending reports with
detailed documentation on the subject of EIRs, the Anaheim Hills study of
consumer demands and preferences and on what they feel the major issues will
be with regard to development of the Bauer Ranch. With relation to timing,
Mr. Rau explained HACMAC has been very concerned that they not hold up the
developers as they do not want to increase red tape.
Mrs. Hall added that HACMAC also performs the function of letting the people in
the area know what is happening, which the legal process would otherwise have
excluded.
Councilwoman Kaywood noted that because of their meetings being held at night
and because they are held out in the Hill and Canyon area, the HACMAC is much
more accessible to the people. She felt however, that any comment from HACMAC
on a project should be strictly in a recommendation form and not something
worded as "denied" or "approved", which the media could pick up as a decision
having been made. She felt that as an advance planning tool, HACMAC is essential
and there appears to be no disagreement in this area.
Councilman Overholt questioned whether some or any part of the $20,000 necessary
to support this advisory board could not be borne by someone other than the City,
to which Mr. Buffington replied that they were only recently made aware of the
costs involved and have held, prior to this meeting, some discussions as to ways
of cutting expenses.
At the conclusion of discussion, Mayor Seymour summarized that it appeared from
a majority of the comments made by the Planning Commission and Council that they
wished to see ILACMAC continue and that the input and recommendations received
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Main Library - 500 West Broadw. ay - COUNCIL MINUTES - June 12~ 1978~ 7:00 P.M.
from them are necessary. However, it would make it easier for the Planning
Commission if recommendations were more definitive and press reporting of
projects being approved or disapproved by HACMAC could be avoided. In addition,
he felt HACMAC should remain alert and sensitive to the timing constraints
faced by the developers, and if necessary to pass something along with an
incomplete recommendation, making it known by going forward at the Planning
Commission or City Council hearings.
D. COMMERCIAL - INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT: Commissioner Tolar reported that the
Planning Commission has requested from staff the development of some type of
master plan for the northeast industrial area, i.e., some criteria for a master
plan of industrial development. The other question to be considered in conjunc-
tion with this master plan is the relationship of commercial to industrial
development which historically 15 to 20 percent commercially related enterprises
were permitted in the industrial zone, whereas recently large commercial enterprises
such as Wickes Furniture Store, have caused the Planning Commission to come to grips
with this question.
E. MOBILE HOME PARK/CONDOMINIUMS: Commissioner Tolar stated that this is also
a report item and noted that the City Planning Commission intends to instruct
staff to prepare some type of mobile home park/condominium development standards
which they would review and forward to Council.
ADJOURNMENT - PLANNING COMMISSION: Commissioner Barnes moved to adjourn. Commis-
sioner King seconded the motion. MOTION CARRIED.
ADJOURNMENT - HACMAC: Mr. Buffington moved to adjourn. Mrs. Hall seconded the
motion. MOTION CARRIED.
ADJOURNMENT - CITY COUNCIL: Councilwoman Kaywood moved to adjourn. Councilman
Kott seconded the motion. MOTION CARRIED.
Adjourned: 9:25 P.M.
~OBER~